Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Any questions or comments you have about Natural Sequence Farming processes. These could include general questions or ones about your personal problems.

PLEASE NOTE :
We do not endorse any answers from anyone in this forum except Peter Andrews himself.

Please remember, Natural Sequence Farming has to be tailored for your specific problem and to follow general advice may create more problems for you.

Moderator: webmaster

Jodi James
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:36 pm
Location: Avon West Australia

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Jodi James » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:28 pm

Hi All,

Just an update on our crops....looking very good in colour and hanging in there considering the lack of rain. 13 frosts in a row knocked them back but they are madly tillering with massive root systems, if it comes in wet they will boom. We are so excited with the response and the feedback from farmers who come from far and wide to check out the crops. Lets hope that harvest will tell us the story. Anyone wanting advice on this system please contact us, we are happy to share :)
Open mindedness opens wisdom

Julian
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:57 pm

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Julian » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:50 pm

Wondering how you came to: "this emissions machine is pumping 1100kgs of carbon into the soil per Ha".How much fuel would you use per Ha?

Ian James
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Avon West Australia

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Ian James » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:29 pm

Are you sure you want to know?
It's going to be long winded.
OK here goes, don't say I didn't warn you.

I took data from exhaust emissions analysis which showed a breakdown of the elements contained within a typical sample.
This includes
    CO2 --Carbon dioxide 63679.7 ppm
    CO --Carbon monoxide 80.6 ppm
    HCHO--Formaldehyde 1.3 ppm
    HNCO --Isocyanic acid 0.9 ppm
    Total Methanic Hydrocarbons --14.7 ppm
    Non Methanic Hydrcarbons 58 ppm

I used this to arrive at total CO2 of approximately 63830 ppm give or take.

Our tractor is a 20 V12 Mercedes
We operate it at around 2000 Revs/minute
Being a 4 stroke engine it has 1 firing stroke every second revolution.
20 Lt x 1000 strokes/minute gives you 20 000 Lt emissions/minute
We travel at 7 km/hr with a 10m wide sowing implement
This gives us an area speed of 7 Ha/hr. Or about 8.6 minutes to the ha
So that would be 172 000 Lt of emissions/ha
At say 64 000 ppm CO2 or 6.4%

The molecular weight (mw)of CO2 is 44 being Carbon mw 12 and Oxygen mw 16
Two parts O is 32 and one part C is 12 Total 44

mass = (44.0 g/mole)x(1 atm)x(1 L) / [(0.0821 Latm/moleK)x(273K)]
= 1.96 g


If it is a liquid or a solid,
Density = mass / volume -----> mass = density x volume
Density liquid = 771 g/L
Density solid = 1600 g/L

Mass liquid = 1 L x 771 g/L = 771 g
mass solid = 1 L x 1600 g/L = 1600 g
I will take the mass of a solid Lt of CO2 which is 1600 g and assume that as calculated above the solid CO2 component of our emissions is 6.4%
So that is 1600/100 times 6.4 = 102.4g / Lt of emissions
Times that by 172 000 Lt Emissions created every Ha is 17544 kg of CO2 / Ha

Now as I mentioned the molecular weight of CO2 is 44 and that of Carbon is 12 and the molecular weight of Oxygen is 16 and the carbon oxygen ratio of CO2 is obviously 2:1
So I calculate that the 1 kg of CO2 contains 270 g of carbon and 730 g of oxygen approximately.

OK now we are getting to the business end.

My answer:
17544 kg of CO2 times .270 = 4736 kg of carbon per Ha

That is my calculation so Jodi may have been wrong and I may be wrong too, I am just a farmer not a scientist, she said 1100 kg carbon/Ha and I am saying it is 4736 kg carbon/ Ha

Now I have seen the BP calculation that 1 Lt of diesel will produce 2.3 kg of CO2 based on the amount of carbon present in the fuel. They say that there can be no more because there is only so much carbon in the fuel but I believe that they are false calculations because they are not taking into account the amount of C in the atmosphere that is sucked into the engine and combined in the combustion chamber with that 1 Lt of diesel.

I could do a whole new calculation to work out how much carbon from the atmosphere is mixed with the amount of fuel required to cover 1 Ha with my tractor and this should give me the same answer as I just calculated of total C exhausted from the engine in the time it takes to sow 1 Ha

Not tonight.... sorry. :oops:

Julian
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:57 pm

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Julian » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:54 pm

Not bad for "Just a Farmer".....
Yes I am now sorry I asked the question, I am sorry to put you to so much work. I was expecting a simple answer like Miles per Gallon sort of thing.
I am not able to comprehend that say 1 litre of Diesel (that weighs just under 1 kg) can produce more that 2kg Carbon. Please dont try to explain, my head might explode, and then there would be even more carbon to deal with.
The main thing is that it is working and in a way it is all going back from where it came from so that has got to be a good thing.

Ian James
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Avon West Australia

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Ian James » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:23 pm

Don't be sorry for asking.

I didn't realise how hard it would be to answer either, and in the end, Im not even sure that I am right, in fact I think I am most likely wrong, but after all that time I spent working out I couldn't bring myself to delete it. :oops:


The thing to remember is that the engine consumes a lot of air in the time it takes to burn 1 ltr of diesel.

That air has a CO2 content and that is combined with the carbon in the diesel to give a total carbon out put greater than the weight of the diesel consumed.

Diesel has a carbon molecular content and within the combustion chamber that is explosivly reduced to it's atomic size and reconstituted with other elements from the intake air and exhausted in diferent forms ie. CO2

Its as simple as that.

sceptic
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:17 pm

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by sceptic » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:18 am

Ian James wrote:Are you sure you want to know?
It's going to be long winded.
OK here goes, don't say I didn't warn you.

I took data from exhaust emissions analysis which showed a breakdown of the elements contained within a typical sample.
This includes
    CO2 --Carbon dioxide 63679.7 ppm
    CO --Carbon monoxide 80.6 ppm
    HCHO--Formaldehyde 1.3 ppm
    HNCO --Isocyanic acid 0.9 ppm
    Total Methanic Hydrocarbons --14.7 ppm
    Non Methanic Hydrcarbons 58 ppm

I used this to arrive at total CO2 of approximately 63830 ppm give or take.

Our tractor is a 20 V12 Mercedes
We operate it at around 2000 Revs/minute
Being a 4 stroke engine it has 1 firing stroke every second revolution.
20 Lt x 1000 strokes/minute gives you 20 000 Lt emissions/minute
We travel at 7 km/hr with a 10m wide sowing implement
This gives us an area speed of 7 Ha/hr. Or about 8.6 minutes to the ha
So that would be 172 000 Lt of emissions/ha
At say 64 000 ppm CO2 or 6.4%

The molecular weight (mw)of CO2 is 44 being Carbon mw 12 and Oxygen mw 16
Two parts O is 32 and one part C is 12 Total 44

mass = (44.0 g/mole)x(1 atm)x(1 L) / [(0.0821 Latm/moleK)x(273K)]
= 1.96 g


If it is a liquid or a solid,
Density = mass / volume -----> mass = density x volume
Density liquid = 771 g/L
Density solid = 1600 g/L

Mass liquid = 1 L x 771 g/L = 771 g
mass solid = 1 L x 1600 g/L = 1600 g
I will take the mass of a solid Lt of CO2 which is 1600 g and assume that as calculated above the solid CO2 component of our emissions is 6.4%
So that is 1600/100 times 6.4 = 102.4g / Lt of emissions
Times that by 172 000 Lt Emissions created every Ha is 17544 kg of CO2 / Ha

Now as I mentioned the molecular weight of CO2 is 44 and that of Carbon is 12 and the molecular weight of Oxygen is 16 and the carbon oxygen ratio of CO2 is obviously 2:1
So I calculate that the 1 kg of CO2 contains 270 g of carbon and 730 g of oxygen approximately.

OK now we are getting to the business end.

My answer:
17544 kg of CO2 times .270 = 4736 kg of carbon per Ha

That is my calculation so Jodi may have been wrong and I may be wrong too, I am just a farmer not a scientist, she said 1100 kg carbon/Ha and I am saying it is 4736 kg carbon/ Ha

Now I have seen the BP calculation that 1 Lt of diesel will produce 2.3 kg of CO2 based on the amount of carbon present in the fuel. They say that there can be no more because there is only so much carbon in the fuel but I believe that they are false calculations because they are not taking into account the amount of C in the atmosphere that is sucked into the engine and combined in the combustion chamber with that 1 Lt of diesel.

I could do a whole new calculation to work out how much carbon from the atmosphere is mixed with the amount of fuel required to cover 1 Ha with my tractor and this should give me the same answer as I just calculated of total C exhausted from the engine in the time it takes to sow 1 Ha

Not tonight.... sorry. :oops:


umm, without going overboard on calculations if we were to assume that all of that 172 000 litres of emissions/ha were CO2 and that one mole of CO2 at 25 degrees occupies 24.465L (as does any gas), dividing 172 000 by 24.465 gives us 7030 moles of CO2, multiplied by the molecular weight of 44 gives us 309 339 grammes, or 309 kilogrammes/Ha.

This assumes that all of the emissions are CO2, there's a lot of water and various oxides of nitrogen in there as well so it would come out at quite a bit less than 300kg/Ha.

You might want to redo your calculations.
The truth is out there.

Ian James
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Avon West Australia

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Ian James » Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:37 pm

Go right ahead, please answer the question for us, I am just having a discussion which you have now joined.

Thanks for joining and please answer the question, I did my best with the knowlege I have. I am very interested in the answer and would welcome your input.

I found it a struggle, lets see what you come up with.

sceptic
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:17 pm

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by sceptic » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:40 pm

Thanks I will, I did make a mistake in my first post, I forgot to take into account that the CO2 concentration of the exhaust gasses was 6.4% so to fix it is a simple matter of multiplying my answer by 6.4% which gives 19.8kg/Ha of CO2, or converting it to straight carbon is 5.4kg/Ha.
The truth is out there.

Angela Helleren
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 6:45 am
Location: Victoria

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Angela Helleren » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:51 pm

To my simple unmathematical mind, (thought I best state this fact up front :D )

I would think there is already a known amount of CO2 released into the atmosphere from a tank of fuel, (of different types).

Knowing the Area covered per tank of fuel would give to CO2 sequestered into the soil.

I remember seeing the Scientists carrying out various tests on ABC Catalyist programme for Peter Andrews water flow theories and perhaps there is a simple test to measure if any CO2 escapes the surface after sowing your crop.


Regardless of whether or not people believe in Global warming, it stands to reason that exhausts are polluting the air we breath. The greater the world's population, the greater their need not just wants, will require industry to produce. That Ian and Jodie are looking (and thinking outside the box) to reduce their CO2 footprint in producing their crops while saving on input costs, is an encouraging sign of what the future may hold.

Higher health risk in exhaust concentration. Think school children in inner city areas surrounded by heavy traffic...tests have proven higher pollution affect their health. The Climate of the debate has Changed as more of the severe weather events (as predicted)are proving the Scientists theory on Global Warming.

my 2 cents worth...cheers
Many hands make light work.
Unfortunately, too many hands stirring anti clockwise, has spoiled mother natures recipe.
Back to basics.

Ian James
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Avon West Australia

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Ian James » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:35 pm

Sceptic
n
1. (Philosophy) a person who habitually doubts the authenticity of accepted beliefs
2. a person who mistrusts people, ideas, etc., in general
3. (Philosophy) a person who doubts the truth of religion

I am happy to be engaged on any topic I join. I am especially happy to have a person who calls themselves by the moniker Sceptic join the fray.

I have been a sceptic of different ideas on many occasions. Sitting comfortably up among the branches eyeing jealously those below me feasting greadily on a juicy idea, watching carefully, should a luckless soul carelessly let a morsel slip, I'll quickly scamper down and snatch my treasure 'fore returning speedily to the safety of my lofty perch.

The amount of carbon emitted by my fertilizer factory is an interesting topic to discuss but for me it is not a matter of huge importance. Wether or not I am able to correctly calculate the carbon content of the gas is not particularly high on my list of things upon which I intend to hang my hat.

What really interests me is will this technology allow me to grow profitable crops without the need for fertilizer?

It is not in my nature to let distracting discussions about the finer details get between me and the truth.

The answer to that question will be in the pudding.

Jodi James
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:36 pm
Location: Avon West Australia

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Jodi James » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:02 pm

Nice comment Ian! :D

I guess we need the Sceptics, Peter has had to put up with them for years. Look what they did to him! shamefull. The good thing is, no matter what, Peter strives along and shares his knowledge and is so passionate on what he does as he has had results, Now it is our turn to try and give the Sceptics some answers.

Well Sceptic or not, We stepped out of our box and did it, and the proof is in the paddock! For all the farmers out there doing it tough, there are other solutions, this is just one of many we have tried and are very happy with the results. We are happy to share our results to keep our farmers on the land. Good luck! If you can get Brix tests in wheat of 26 and in oats of 29 without doing anything then let me know your secret, as I have shared mine and I am excited with our results on such a dry year...I wonder what we will get on a wet one? :mrgreen:
Open mindedness opens wisdom

Angela Helleren
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 6:45 am
Location: Victoria

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Angela Helleren » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:34 pm

Jodie, I'm sure Peter would agree that often it's a case of finding the right ear to hear the message. Not easy with so many competing interests and lobby groups yet the message is being heard where it matters most... at the grassroots!
2,500 HA should raise a lot of ears and eyebrows!!! :wink:

Cheers :lol:
Many hands make light work.
Unfortunately, too many hands stirring anti clockwise, has spoiled mother natures recipe.
Back to basics.

Ian James
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Avon West Australia

Zero fertiliser zero post emerge herbicides

Post by Ian James » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:29 pm

The proof is in the paddock!

Image
Image
Image
Image

Angela Helleren
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 6:45 am
Location: Victoria

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by Angela Helleren » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:17 am

Wow, fantastic Ian! Lovely healthy looking crop... :D

Perhaps you should give Landline a call! Cheers
Many hands make light work.
Unfortunately, too many hands stirring anti clockwise, has spoiled mother natures recipe.
Back to basics.

jenni
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: holbrooknsw

Re: Exhaust emissions fertiliser

Post by jenni » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:36 am

Ian & Jody
congratulations on yr fantastic achievement. Yr crop looks healthy and lush. My husband and I would like to extend our congratulations and our best wishes to you. I am also very happy for you Ian because you have often sounded fairly downhearted in yr posts and now they are brimming with joy. When can you get the machine over and do our place? Haha. Redards, jen

Post Reply