Lucerne

Julian · Post by **Julian** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:35 pm

Interesting to compare conventional advise to Peters advise. No wonder it is going to be an uphill battle.
Here is Case study on growing Lucerne, I would love to see Peter put his method, I am sure it would be a little different, and a little cheaper.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nrenfa.ns ... r%2014.pdf[/url]

jenni · Post by **jenni** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:43 pm

I shudder when I read literature such as this. I strongly disagree that lucerne protects the soil. I have also read some seed catalogues recommending seeding lucerne at 40 kg/ha. I'd really like to know what peters thoughts on lucerne management are too. good post

Nimrodel · Post by **Nimrodel** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:37 pm

Jenni, I am curious to know why and in which situations you are referring to when you say you disagree that lucerne protects the soil? Do you mean on a commercial scale only or small areas ie as a ground cover under a home orchard? In both my traditional Ag and Permaculture training I have been taught that lucerne is beneficial in many ways. Would be interested to hear differing opinions!

jenni · Post by **jenni** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:55 pm

Hi there I am ambivelent of the benefits of lucerne and disagree with the notion that it protects soil. In saying that I am really talking about paddocks of it on it's own. And it's all down to management. Bare ground is the biggest problem with it that I can see. how can bare ground be protected?don't get me wrong it is an important plant but grown as a thick monoculture is quite prone to pests and heavy grazing can make the plants pretty efficient soil miners.I have also heard anecdotal evidence to suggest it can have an allelopathic effect on native grasses. I think I probably don't have any issue with the plant itself but with the methods used to put it in 'high production'

Shirley Henderson · Post by **Shirley Henderson** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:51 pm

I found The case study of Davis Price very informative and I am sure if he changed his practises regarding lime, fertiliser and herbicide he could still feed his animals and make a fine profit. I wonder if he has heard of Peter as he would be an excellent case study for NSF if he would give it a go.
It would be great to see someone with his experience trial NSF. He has already recorded information for his before trials.

Anyway I hope PA doesn't mind but for those that have not read 'Back from the Brink' as yet I have quoted a couple of pages from his book regarding lucerne.

BFTB page 41.......Lucerne is an unusual plant. Like weeds, it has a deep tap root that mines the deepers soil and brings up carbons and salts, but, unlike weeds, it is edible during its growing cycle. A weed such as a thistle doesn't get eaten, so its carbons are recyclyed into the soil. But because a lucerne plant gets eaten, its carbons are removed. Hence a soil imbalance. As a result, wherever lucerne has been grown long term in the same paddock, you will find an outbreak of salt below - even if the paddock hasn't been irrigated.

BFTB page 127......Lucerne has many of the characteristics of weeds, and if we used it as a mulch crop instead of a feed crop it would perform many of the functions that weeds perform. As it's used now - as a crop to be grazed or harvested - lucerne runs down the soil like any other crop. But if we slashed it and recycled its residue, lucerne would be a soil revitaliser.

Nimrodel · Post by **Nimrodel** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:11 pm

Thankyou both for your replies. Obviously what it comes down to is the situation in which the plant is used. The second quote backs up what I am doing at the moment - I have hand seeded my 1/4 acre paddock with lucerne (among the weeds) which I will continually mow and let it break down on the surface, acting as a mulch and adding carbon to the soil.
I am going to make a case study out of it and see if in time the weeds do naturally die out to be replaced by grass. The area I will be most interested in is towards the road side of the block where there is a dense patch of thistles growing. I would like to let them grow to maturity and then slash them but being a rental property we are obliged to keep it 'neat' so have to mow them when they start to get any height. There is also a lot of fennel growing nearby which I will be interested to observe to see if the lucerne has any discernible affect on the density/proliferation of the plants.

Stringybark · Post by **Stringybark** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:52 am

I would have to agree with Jenni in regards to lucerne protecting the soil in a conventional commercial operation.
As a monoculture, it leaves alot of soil exposed. The roots will grow very deep over time(as much as 6 meters deep). Therefore sourcing a great amount of nutrients that grasses can't.
The problem is, as stated before, the grazing and packaged fodder production into bales, silage etc takes all the good stuff away. Leaving bare soil where once it was shaded and no replacement mulch.
It's no wonder Lucerne is such an expensive plant to establish and maintain under conventional practices. I laughed at the comment by the farmer in the article that "The more you put in, the more you get out". A shortsighted view.
If you keep taking everything out of the soil and removing it from the site, it will require more and more inputs. The profitability of producing lucerne hay and selling it is questionable over a prolonged period.
I think that in a biodiverse mix it would be a great contributor. Just get the plant to produce and mulch it.

I had a look around and found this site on the origins and plant description of lucerne. It may be of interest to others.

http://www.lusern.org/index.php?option= ... Itemid=197

Shirley Henderson · Post by **Shirley Henderson** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:01 am

I use lucerne as mulch and I bought it just for that. I like kniphofia plants (red hot pokers) because they feed the long billed honey eaters. After mulching with lucerne after flowering they produced heaps more plants the following year and masses of flowers. I was impressed!
Shirley
ps I better start growing it.