We have sandy soil with a fair bit of organic matter with it and it just sheds water
My theory is that the waxiness of eucalypts may be the culprit.
Cheers Dougal
Water shedding soil
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Water shedding soil
Does anyone know what causes a soil to become hydrophobic?
We have sandy soil with a fair bit of organic matter with it and it just sheds water
My theory is that the waxiness of eucalypts may be the culprit.
Cheers Dougal
We have sandy soil with a fair bit of organic matter with it and it just sheds water
My theory is that the waxiness of eucalypts may be the culprit.
Cheers Dougal
In hydrophobic soils, the soil particles are apparently coated with substances that repel water, much like wax. In studies of localized dry spots in turfgrass, the soil particles were found to be coated with a complex organic, acidic material that appeared to be the mycelium (growth structure) of a fungus.
You might find this article of help
http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/publications/S ... AG-439-25/
We have a problem with an eara in our vegie garden that was formed from imported topsoil. Despite years of adding, manure, compost and mulch it remains hydrophobic and will not seem to retain organic matter, it seems to accelerate the oxidation of organic matter. Plants do grow in it but they do very poorly when the dry season hits.
You might find this article of help
http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/publications/S ... AG-439-25/
We have a problem with an eara in our vegie garden that was formed from imported topsoil. Despite years of adding, manure, compost and mulch it remains hydrophobic and will not seem to retain organic matter, it seems to accelerate the oxidation of organic matter. Plants do grow in it but they do very poorly when the dry season hits.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
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Shirley Henderson
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 4:03 pm
- Location: Thirlmere
sandy soil
HI Dougal, can I ask what kind of organic matter is in your sandy soil?
Shirley
Shirley
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Shirley Henderson
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 4:03 pm
- Location: Thirlmere
dry soil
There are many things that would need to be considered.
How big an area are we talking about?
What area you are in, what is surrounding your farm?
Where is your farm topographically, high, low or in the middle.
The holes that you dug above your trees is a great idea, is it working and how fast does it absorb water now?
Can you see effects of moisture going into the soil below those trees to show that water is penetrating, such as green vegetation below the trees showing water is flowing down hill somewhere?
When soil becomes water repellent it is hard to get water to absorb again but once you do, it will continue to do so and much faster than at first.
How long have you been there?
Shirley
How big an area are we talking about?
What area you are in, what is surrounding your farm?
Where is your farm topographically, high, low or in the middle.
The holes that you dug above your trees is a great idea, is it working and how fast does it absorb water now?
Can you see effects of moisture going into the soil below those trees to show that water is penetrating, such as green vegetation below the trees showing water is flowing down hill somewhere?
When soil becomes water repellent it is hard to get water to absorb again but once you do, it will continue to do so and much faster than at first.
How long have you been there?
Shirley
We've been here a bit over a year now. The soil on the ridges and hilltops seems incredibly hungry.
A ten litre bucket probably takes about a minute to disappear. I think most of the water is ending up around the root zone of the trees.
It just amazes me how the water can run over completely dry soil and leave it just as dry as it was!
I do notice if a watering can is used it make quite a difference as to how wet the soil will end up, especially in the vegie patch.
We were on pure clay soil at Echuca before here and even there when we planted trees the occasional hole would just shed the water and you had to make sure to "well" around the trunk of the tree.
I understand that humus will accept loads of water quite readily, especially when already slightly moist.
I think its very important that the soil holds as much water as it possibly can in a given situation to allow nsf principles to work correctly.
A ten litre bucket probably takes about a minute to disappear. I think most of the water is ending up around the root zone of the trees.
It just amazes me how the water can run over completely dry soil and leave it just as dry as it was!
I do notice if a watering can is used it make quite a difference as to how wet the soil will end up, especially in the vegie patch.
We were on pure clay soil at Echuca before here and even there when we planted trees the occasional hole would just shed the water and you had to make sure to "well" around the trunk of the tree.
I understand that humus will accept loads of water quite readily, especially when already slightly moist.
I think its very important that the soil holds as much water as it possibly can in a given situation to allow nsf principles to work correctly.
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Shirley Henderson
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 4:03 pm
- Location: Thirlmere
water shedding soil
You are probably correct about that waxiness coming from the eucalyptus leaves. I would recommend a wetting agent, which is why I asked how big an area you are talking about. The wetting agent can be applied just around your trees drip zone to allow water to penetrate and be held until it is used up. You need thick organic mulch on top too. Around your trees, I would leave space around the drip zone for the water to get in easily.
This is only a temporary solution and to get that soil started on letting the water in.
Duane has advised me that dishwashing liquid is also good for wetting the soil.
*I assume its just natural bush litter. We have planted trees on top of our farm but have to dig a hole on the top side of the tree to get the water to go in! If we don't the water just runs down the hill, leaving the freshly dug dirt powdery.*As Duane and Peter recommends start a nice organic mulch pile above the trees and high points of your property. Mulch holds moisture and will release it slowly with fertility to seep down hill.
How big an area are we talking about?
I asked that due to cost of wetting agent but the organic alternative is cheap.
What area you are in, what is surrounding your farm?
Where is your farm topographically, high, low or in the middle?
It is important to consider your surrounds such as Eucalyptus trees, no trees. You will have to enlighten us on that.
If it takes a minute for a bucket of water to go in that is not too bad but the water might not be going where you want it. Again a wetting agent to get things started it breaks down the waxiness in the soil. Also being sand it does not have a lot of water holding capacity that is why mulch and organic matter is important. Use the piles like Peter and Duane suggests.
Can you see effects of moisture going into the soil below those trees to show that water is penetrating, such as green vegetation below the trees showing water is flowing down hill somewhere?
*We've been here a bit over a year now. The soil on the ridges and hilltops seems incredibly hungry.* Start up mulch piles *I do notice if a watering can is used it make quite a difference as to how wet the soil will end up, especially in the veggie patch.*
This is because you pour slow and let it soak in. Do that with a wetting agent and things will begin to improve. The wetting agent only need be applied the once usually in a 12 month period.
*I understand that humus will accept loads of water quite readily, especially when already slightly moist.* Refer back to getting those mulch piles started.
Also covering all uncovered ground with mulch especially beginning around your trees veggie patch etc.
This too is where the weeds can come in handy as they cool, cover and protect your soil. Turn and mulch them into it when the time is right.
Also where is your water running too when it runs down your property?
This is only a temporary solution and to get that soil started on letting the water in.
Duane has advised me that dishwashing liquid is also good for wetting the soil.
*I assume its just natural bush litter. We have planted trees on top of our farm but have to dig a hole on the top side of the tree to get the water to go in! If we don't the water just runs down the hill, leaving the freshly dug dirt powdery.*As Duane and Peter recommends start a nice organic mulch pile above the trees and high points of your property. Mulch holds moisture and will release it slowly with fertility to seep down hill.
How big an area are we talking about?
I asked that due to cost of wetting agent but the organic alternative is cheap.
What area you are in, what is surrounding your farm?
Where is your farm topographically, high, low or in the middle?
It is important to consider your surrounds such as Eucalyptus trees, no trees. You will have to enlighten us on that.
If it takes a minute for a bucket of water to go in that is not too bad but the water might not be going where you want it. Again a wetting agent to get things started it breaks down the waxiness in the soil. Also being sand it does not have a lot of water holding capacity that is why mulch and organic matter is important. Use the piles like Peter and Duane suggests.
Can you see effects of moisture going into the soil below those trees to show that water is penetrating, such as green vegetation below the trees showing water is flowing down hill somewhere?
*We've been here a bit over a year now. The soil on the ridges and hilltops seems incredibly hungry.* Start up mulch piles *I do notice if a watering can is used it make quite a difference as to how wet the soil will end up, especially in the veggie patch.*
This is because you pour slow and let it soak in. Do that with a wetting agent and things will begin to improve. The wetting agent only need be applied the once usually in a 12 month period.
*I understand that humus will accept loads of water quite readily, especially when already slightly moist.* Refer back to getting those mulch piles started.
Also covering all uncovered ground with mulch especially beginning around your trees veggie patch etc.
This too is where the weeds can come in handy as they cool, cover and protect your soil. Turn and mulch them into it when the time is right.
Also where is your water running too when it runs down your property?
The following info qualifies some good info on hydrophobic soils and wetting agents. Quote from http://www.global-garden.com.au/burnley ... n03dte.htm
Soil Wetting Agents
With drought mitigation strategies an ongoing priority in horticulture, we asked Dr Peter May about the use of soil wetting agents.
What do soil wetting agents do?
Soil wetting agents are designed to overcome water repellence in soils. Sandy soils, soils high in organic matter and potting mixes are the most likely to become hydrophobic. When these types of soils are watered with a hose, the water simply rolls off and is not absorbed. This can be a trap for gardeners who think they have watered their plants when in fact the water has simply rolled to the sides of the pot and out the drainage holes without wetting the soil at all. So "well-watered" pots can often be seriously drought stressed.
Soil wetters help to overcome the effects of waxy organic coatings on the surface of the soil and the surface of organic matter so allowing the water to penetrate and be absorbed.
What soil wetters do not do is to change the structure of the soil. They do not improve soil as such. Slow rates of water infiltration can also be the result of factors such as soil compaction and heavy clays. Soil wetters will not solve these problems and other strategies need to be employed. These include cultivation, the addition of organic matter and/or gypsum, or the use of "clay-breaking" products which affect the chemical composition of the soil so that particles clump together and create pore spaces through which water and air can move.
It is important to do what you can to avoid allowing soil and potting medium to dry out to the point where it becomes hydrophobic.
How do soil wetters work?
Basically they work by making water wetter! Soil wetters are essentially the same as detergents. They reduce the surface tension of the water and allow it to wet the waxy surface of the soil particles allowing water to move into the soil through the pores. Soil wetting agents belong to a class of chemicals called surfactants. There are different kinds of wetting agents/ surfactants and they are used for different purposes. In horticulture, as well as soil wetting, surfactants are used to allow various products such as herbicides, fungicides and fertilisers to spread out over the leaf blade of plants and be more readily absorbed by the leaf tissue. These "spreaders" are designed to work quickly but do not last long.
Are wetting agents environmentally damaging?
For soil wetting agents to work effectively, they cannot be too readily bio-degradable or their effectiveness will be very transitory. Ordinary washing up detergent for example will promote water penetration in soil but the effect would only last a few days. (In Growing Media for Ornamental Plants and Turf, (p.31), Handreck & Black describe washing up detergent as "useless" for soil wetting and also warn that many standard laundry detergent powders contain levels of chemicals such as sodium and boron which can be damaging to plants and that these should not be applied to soils.) Commercial soil wetting agents will continue to work for a considerable period, but they will eventually be degraded by soil micro-organisms. However detergents can interfere with the life-cycles of some aquatic organisms, and care should be taken to prevent run off of these products into streams, and excess product should not be washed down gutters. Concentrated detergents can be poisonous, so need to be used and stored with caution. Always read and follow the directions on the label.
Is there any advantage in using granular rather than liquid soil wetters?
Granular products are easier to use than liquid products and can be readily incorporated into potting mixes. With granular products, the soil wetting agent is incorporated into granules of either clay or organic material such as coir. The wetting agent is then leached out gradually whenever the granules are watered or when it rains.
Can soil wetters damage the foliage of plants?
Because soil wetters break down the waxy cuticle that protects leaves, some product labels warn users to avoid applying the product to foliage. If in doubt, ask the manufacturer for clarification. Doing a test patch before a general application of a product is also wise practice. The article at the address below will assist you to make informed assessments and enquiries about available products.
http://www.agcsa.com.au/atm/articles/vol21/wetagnt.htm
Profile: Dr Peter May is Deputy Head of Campus, University of Melbourne - Burnley College. He is a soil scientist with a range of horticultural interests including plant performance in the landscape, turf and viticulture.
You have been given some very informative answers already.
Of course they are all correct.
I would say though that they are treating the symptoms and not the cause.
Your soil is dead.
By that I mean that your soil is lacking microbial activity.
Fear not, you have asked the right question at the right place.
Dr Maartin Stapper is the bloke you need to talk to.
Duane, would you be kind enough to introduce Dougal to Maartin.
Please Dougal, be kind enough to inform us all of your education and subsequent cure of this "non wetting" soil through Dr Stapper's advice.
Of course they are all correct.
I would say though that they are treating the symptoms and not the cause.
Your soil is dead.
By that I mean that your soil is lacking microbial activity.
Fear not, you have asked the right question at the right place.
Dr Maartin Stapper is the bloke you need to talk to.
Duane, would you be kind enough to introduce Dougal to Maartin.
Please Dougal, be kind enough to inform us all of your education and subsequent cure of this "non wetting" soil through Dr Stapper's advice.
Have you found any answers?
How is it going there Dougal.
I met Dr Maartin Stapper a couple of weeks ago,
He explained so well the sort of things that are happening in a healthy soil profile.
It made a lot of sense and re affirmed a lot of other information we had begun to become aware of.
Since then we have been trying to find a way to implement his teachings into our broad acre cropping program.
It's not so easy because we are starting fresh with a whole lot of ideas a lot of which are contra to our current practices which have been streamlined and made efficient over the years into a manageable program that suits our property.
It is going to have to be a careful and gradual process because any failure could be terminal to our business.
All the same we are really upbeat and enthusiastic and we have found that there are many farm consultancy groups which are advocating the methods described by Dr Stapper.
So we are in the process of planning our growing season with new methods and practises with many helping advisors.
I met Dr Maartin Stapper a couple of weeks ago,
He explained so well the sort of things that are happening in a healthy soil profile.
It made a lot of sense and re affirmed a lot of other information we had begun to become aware of.
Since then we have been trying to find a way to implement his teachings into our broad acre cropping program.
It's not so easy because we are starting fresh with a whole lot of ideas a lot of which are contra to our current practices which have been streamlined and made efficient over the years into a manageable program that suits our property.
It is going to have to be a careful and gradual process because any failure could be terminal to our business.
All the same we are really upbeat and enthusiastic and we have found that there are many farm consultancy groups which are advocating the methods described by Dr Stapper.
So we are in the process of planning our growing season with new methods and practises with many helping advisors.